Interview: Radical Liberal John Caputo introduced Leo to his "Radical Theology" Augustine - "The new pope, Leo XIV, was one of your students. Could you tell us how his Augustinian identity connects with your theology of the event? John D. Caputo: Yes, he was one of my students in a course I taught for Augustinian seminarians at Villanova University. The seminarians, who were part of the Order of Saint Augustine (OSA), had to complete a rigorous philosophy curriculum, and one of the required courses was mine: German Existentialism and Phenomenology"

The new pope, Leo XIV, was one of your students. Could you tell us how his Augustinian identity connects with your theology of the event?
John D. Caputo: Yes, he was one of my students in a course I taught for Augustinian seminarians at Villanova University. The seminarians, who were part of the Order of Saint Augustine (OSA), had to complete a rigorous philosophy curriculum, and one of the required courses was mine: German Existentialism and Phenomenology.

In that course, I taught Kierkegaard and Nietzsche in the first half, then Husserl and excerpts from Heidegger’s Being and Time in the second half. He was part of a sharp group, including Robert Dodaro, who became a leading Augustine scholar. Dodaro and a few others were more vocal, while the future pope was more reserved—he listened more than he spoke.

That trait became significant later when the cardinals explained their choice: he’s a good listener. People feel heard in his presence, which enhances his communication. His focus on synodality, a model of church leadership based on community and dialogue, reflects this. I remembered it from class, and when he was elected, I checked my old attendance books—sure enough, he was there. Others spoke often; he listened carefully. He was a good listener from the start.

How important is the Augustinian spirit at Villanova?
John D. Caputo: The Augustinian spirit is central at Villanova, and it influenced my teaching. I often connected Kierkegaard to Augustine, pointing out that existentialism has its roots in The Confessions of Saint Augustine, which I presented as a genuine philosophical lineage. This helped introduce students to Continental Philosophy, which, while not tied to Thomas Aquinas, resonates deeply with Augustine, especially The Confessions.

The City of God is more of a public defense of faith, but The Confessions is personal, revealing the self before God, coram Deo. This is where we see the emergence of the modern, existential subject, linking Augustine to contemporary thought.

A key moment in my intellectual life was my early interest in Derrida, long before he mentioned Augustine. When I first read Of Grammatology in the late ’70s, Derrida was controversial. I argued he wasn’t attacking universals to tear them down, but to affirm the unique and marginalized, much like Augustine’s focus on the particular, not scientia but sapientia.

Then, in 1991, Derrida’s Circonfession blew me away. It was his life story through the lens of The Confessions, confirming my view of the connection between Derrida and Augustine.

I later organized conferences at Villanova with Derrida, including one dedicated to The Confessions, bringing together Augustine scholars and Derrida. This marked a convergence of my work on Derrida and Augustine. All of this happened after the young pope Prevost was my student in 1977, when I was just starting to explore Derrida’s work. He wasn’t exposed to it in my classroom, but he did encounter Augustine as the pre-modern precursor to the post-modern—a helpful way to understand their continuity.

Can you explain that?
John D. Caputo: Augustine, in many ways, predates the rise of metaphysics as we know it. In his time, theology wasn’t a scientific discipline but a pastoral engagement with Scripture, aimed at articulating the faith within the community. The idea of theology as a structured discipline didn’t emerge until the 12th century.

Augustine didn’t have to “overcome” metaphysics—he was never shaped by it. Though he engaged with Neoplatonic ideas, he wasn’t an academic or university professor. He was a bishop, focused on pastoring and teaching, and didn’t make a sharp distinction between philosophy and theology.

For Augustine, theology was a way of life, not an academic field, giving his thought a pre-metaphysical quality. He didn’t move beyond metaphysics; he was never part of it. That’s why I see a resonance between the pre-modern and the post-modern, as Augustine’s pastoral, existential thinking connects to postmodern concerns by not being bound by later metaphysical theology.

Joseph Ratzinger aka Pope Benedict XVI, was influenced by Martin Heidegger. Do you see a connection between St. Augustine and him ?
John D. Caputo: Yes, but Ratzinger represents a traditional theological stance. Though he didn’t start that way, he became a deeply conservative thinker. His engagement with Augustine is conventional, not radical, and the same goes for Jean-Luc Marion. Despite his sophisticated, phenomenological approach, Marion ultimately reinforces a classical, neo-Platonic Christian framework.

Radical theology, however, operates on a different level. It’s not present in Ratzinger or Marion. Marion’s use of phenomenology, especially the concept of the saturated phenomenon, feels like a transcription of von Balthasar’s aesthetics—God’s glory expressed as an excess of presence. It’s a theology of plenitude and affirmation.

In contrast, radical theology, like Derrida’s deconstruction, embraces unknowing, absence, and the apophatic. It’s not about the glory of what is, but feeling about in the dark for what might come—an event that could be redemptive or catastrophic. This openness is missing in thinkers like Ratzinger, Marion, or von Balthasar, whose Christocentric theology is rooted in theological confidence—God as a rock.

While their theology is sincere and rich, it’s not radical in the way I mean: it doesn’t deconstruct metaphysics or push theology into postmodern territory. It sustains rather than disrupts tradition.