Fr. Gruner: "this person said oh well five years doesn't work I'm not I'm going to I'm going to get a divorce well then is is clear they never" terms for am marriage 5:00 and therefore what is null it never took 5:03 place and what the annulment is is to 5:06 declare upon examining the issues and 5:09 questions coming up it comes out that 5:11 this person said oh well five years 5:12 doesn't work I'm not I'm going to I'm 5:14 going to get a divorce well then is is 5:16 clear they never wasn't and the 5:18 difference is is why you have priests on 5:20 these Marriage is to say to ask the right 5:22 questions did you really have this 5:24 intention or did he have some other

Transcript

https://youtu.be/ksxD2f_Yaho 

What about Annulments?

The Fatima Center

112K subscribers

7,886 views Jan 30, 2015

http://www.fatima.org/ Questions and Answers with Father Gruner

0:07

hello and welcome to your questions

0:08

answered with father gruner I'm John

0:10

vaner in this program we take your

0:12

questions father gruner answers them we

0:14

talk about them have discussions uh

0:16

please continue to send us these

0:17

questions at questionsthe fatmac

0:20

center.com we have a question today

0:22

about uh what's called annulments I'll

0:25

just read what it says is is a person

0:27

who has received an analment from a

0:29

diois tribunal free to marry again is

0:32

there any doubt about the validity of a

0:35

subsequent marriage I have always

0:36

believed that one could only enter into

0:39

a second marriage if the first partner

0:41

was deceased so I think it comes down to

0:44

an understanding of what the word

0:45

analment means well I think that so so

0:48

an analment is not a divorce okay so and

0:52

and so the what is it what is but before

0:54

we even talk what analment is we have to

0:56

talk about what marriage is okay so a

0:58

marriage sacramentally speaking John I

1:00

know you know this and you can perhaps

1:01

feel in things I might leave out but the

1:03

idea is that the sa marriage is actually

1:06

takes place it's the priest is not the

1:08

minister of the sacrament the priest is

1:11

the official witness now the priest for

1:13

saying mass or absolving from sins or

1:15

baptizing he is the minister but in the

1:17

case of of marriage it's not the priest

1:19

who's the minister of the sacrament it's

1:21

the each person administering to the the

1:23

couple so the whole idea is that

1:25

marriage is quite un unique is that it's

1:27

a contract what I mean by a contract I

1:30

mean you have to I don't want to sound

1:32

either cold or commercial but a contract

1:35

even for for for let's say no money at

1:38

all is John I agree to give you this in

1:41

return for I want you to come to my

1:43

house tomorrow and bring over a cup of

1:45

tea for me okay so I have to sign a

1:47

contract for that I the idea but the

1:49

idea is it's it's an agreement a

1:51

contract is agreement but a contract is

1:53

a more formal agreement so I mean and

1:56

but you sign a contract with someone

1:57

who's going to put a new roof on your

1:58

house yeah and that's a commercial want

2:00

leave contract out of being commercial

2:02

the idea is it's not what it's certainly

2:04

an example of a contract if you know you

2:06

put a new roof on your house and the

2:08

supplier says I'll do this and you give

2:10

me this much money and and you know give

2:12

me access to the house and this and that

2:13

and I'll do this for such and such

2:15

that's but the whole idea is that you're

2:16

agreeing to something I'm agreeing to

2:18

something and we're making exchange and

2:20

we're fulfilling our end of the contract

2:22

by by doing what we said we're going to

2:24

do but in the case of marriage it's is

2:26

also a contract it's not a commercial

2:28

contract it is an agreement between a

2:30

man and a woman it has to be a man and a

2:32

woman but so this the man and the woman

2:34

who are not married already so that's

2:37

the first thing and that they are

2:38

capable of marriage so a child for

2:40

example 10 years old or 5 years old

2:42

cannot marry not because they're they're

2:45

humans but they're not they are not

2:47

capable of marriage yet so they can't

2:49

get married yet because they need to be

2:51

adult humans I might say first of all so

2:54

the whole point I'm getting at is that

2:56

the sa of marriage is the contract

2:59

between the man and the woman to to

3:01

accept the woman accepts the man as her

3:03

husband the man accepts the woman as his

3:05

wife and that is there's two people in

3:08

the contract there's a third person in

3:09

the contract the third person is God and

3:12

God says you can't get married to each

3:14

other unless you agree to my fundamental

3:17

terms of this contract which is that

3:20

your your Every Act of procreation is

3:22

open to children now whether God wants

3:26

to send you children or doesn't send you

3:28

children that's God's choice but the act

3:30

of procreation has to be open to that so

3:33

if a person gets married for example

3:34

goes through more exactly goes through a

3:36

ceremony if a man and a woman goes

3:37

through a ceremony saying I'm going to

3:39

marry x and x is going to marry y but X

3:43

is saying to himself all along but I'm

3:45

not going to have any children I'm going

3:46

to do whatever it takes for me not to

3:47

have any children while enjoying the

3:50

benefits of the act of procreation well

3:53

that is not a marriage because God says

3:55

I will not bless that it's not according

3:58

to my terms if a man if x gets married

4:01

to Y in another case and says I'll marry

4:05

Y and I'll marry X but if it doesn't

4:07

work out in 5 years I'm going to get a

4:09

divorce well God also hasn't blessed

4:11

that marriage because that's not the

4:12

marriage is forever so if in their

4:14

hearts and their consent they've already

4:16

said I'm not going to have respect

4:18

accept any children although I'll use

4:20

The Marriage Act or I'm not going to

4:22

marry for for life even though okay I

4:25

made a bad choice X wasn't what I

4:27

thought it was or wasn't what she I

4:29

thought she was he was the point is if

4:31

we have made that contract already with

4:34

those terms in our own we have not been

4:36

married in the first place and why am I

4:37

bringing this up is because in those

4:39

cases there was never a marriage even

4:42

though they went through a ceremony even

4:44

though they said I do they didn't really

4:45

mean I do and therefore there never was

4:49

a contract and a Meeting of Minds and

4:51

hearts to agree to something that that

4:54

was also in Conformity with with God's

4:57

uh conditions and terms for am marriage

5:00

and therefore what is null it never took

5:03

place and what the analment is is to

5:06

declare upon examining the issues and

5:09

questions coming up it comes out that

5:11

this person said oh well five years

5:12

doesn't work I'm not I'm going to I'm

5:14

going to get a divorce well then is is

5:16

clear they never wasn't and the

5:18

difference is is why you have priests on

5:20

these Mar is to say to ask the right

5:22

questions did you really have this

5:24

intention or did he have some other

5:25

intention because after a while we need

5:27

the marriage is a difficult it's a

5:30

blessing but it also has its crosses and

5:33

so you need The Graces for the marriage

5:35

so if a marriage Falls breaks

5:37

apart it could be because they're not

5:39

being faithful to Grace but also could

5:40

be because they haven't had the grace in

5:42

the first place because there never was

5:43

a marriage because God didn't give them

5:44

the blessing and therefore they don't

5:46

have this because they broke one of the

5:48

fundamental rules in the very Act of

5:50

getting married so all an analment is is

5:53

declaring that that marriage never took

5:56

place in the first place yes they went

5:58

through a ceremony yes they said I do

6:00

yes they you know they lived this man

6:01

and wife for how many years but no there

6:03

was not an actual contract and agreement

6:06

of a fundamental point on these

6:07

fundamental points I'm not going through

6:09

the whole thing but I'm just trying to

6:10

get the point is that if a tribunal does

6:14

its job properly properly and it

6:17

discovers that there are grounds such as

6:19

not accepting children you know just

6:21

we're going to use the Marriage Act but

6:23

we're not going to accept children and

6:25

that was their intention from day one

6:26

from the time they they they aged then

6:28

there was no marriage

6:30

and I I mean they think I'm making this

6:31

up they can look up Cy kobbi that's by

6:34

pi the pi 11th in 1930 is encyclical he

6:37

makes it very clear there's never not

6:39

that he's the only it's been taught by

6:41

that to the church all the time he was

6:42

just he was just

6:45

pronouncing what the teacher is and the

6:46

same thing he says the same thing about

6:48

for if a person say going to get married

6:50

and for it's also in Cy kobbi so those

6:52

are not the only cases but those are two

6:54

cases which are classic for which they

6:57

ad do and tribal could say if they have

6:58

the authority say after examining the

7:01

witnesses under oath and everything else

7:02

and we've discovered there's no marriage

7:04

and it certainly can be you can be as

7:06

certain as as anything on if those are

7:09

the two cases you know but I mean and

7:11

there's other grounds for enement

7:13

besides but the point I'm trying to get

7:14

at here is the person says I always

7:16

believe a person only second marriage to

7:17

the first partner died if you were

7:18

married to the first partner you're

7:19

absolutely correct that is if you truly

7:21

had a marriage with that your husband

7:22

your wife then you can't get married to

7:25

anybody else you can't have a you can't

7:27

have a divorce you're you're you're I

7:29

mean For Better or Worse you're you for

7:31

better great or For Worse you're stuck

7:33

but anyway that's what it is but in the

7:36

case of uh if they never had a marriage

7:38

in the first place then there's grounds

7:40

for enement now I can't say well you

7:42

know since I had this I self administer

7:44

to myself okay why declare I'm anel no

7:46

we we have to go through while God is

7:47

joined together nobody can put us under

7:50

including the partners themselves yes so

7:53

I don't know if that's answer question

7:54

well I think to the question comes up

7:55

because right now uh we're going through

7:57

a period in church history where there

7:58

was a tremendous amount of abuse

8:00

regarding an nments yes where they're

8:02

just um they're coming up with fanciful

8:04

reasons and and um they it's really just

8:07

a Catholic divorce yeah and so uh that's

8:10

why um I mean of course it's not

8:13

Catholic but it's it's yeah yeah it's a

8:15

it's a figure of speech I know of of a

8:17

woman uh who went to I won't even say

8:20

what dicese it is but she went to see

8:22

the the vicer general of the dasis who

8:24

no who's ever the head of the tribunal

8:26

sure and of course there's you know

8:27

there's a number of reasons why um that

8:31

make one eligible to for an moment and

8:34

she sat down and the mon sior sat down

8:37

he threw the paper at her and said pick

8:39

a

8:39

reason in other words just you know you

8:42

want to make this happen we'll make it

8:44

happen yeah and um so and my senor Smith

8:47

I love this story my senior Smith who

8:49

was a moral Theologian at at Dunwoody

8:51

Seminary he said he was talking to

8:54

another Theologian who was much more

8:55

Progressive and they were at a

8:56

restaurant so-called Progressive but

8:58

anyway yeah was he was he was a

9:00

modernist and uh and uh this man this

9:04

this priest says to

9:05

uh to uh my senior Smith I I've never

9:08

seen a marriage that couldn't be an old

9:11

right and my senior Smith said don't say

9:14

that in public yeah that's stupid shall

9:17

we start with your parents you know

9:19

where that makes

9:21

you so um so there's been a lot of abuse

9:25

in in anman so even dealing with the

9:27

dases on these points uh one has to be

9:29

very careful that they're following the

9:31

the rules the real whole thing is this

9:33

that obviously if they're giving an

9:36

analment on the basis of solid grounds

9:38

I've given two I'm not given all of them

9:41

then the nment would be valid if the

9:43

analment if it's done for some specious

9:46

reason or done in this place that says

9:47

oh give you take a reason I'll fill it

9:49

out and get you the that's obious they

9:51

haven't got the right attitude they it's

9:53

it's a it's a very serious job I mean

9:55

it's it's enough work you know I mean

9:57

it's it's it's a it's a it's a sacrifice

10:00

it's a cross-like marriage also why

10:03

would some

10:04

priest put a soul in hell because he

10:07

makes two people who are not happy with

10:09

their marriage with each other and I'm

10:10

just going to give you a divorce I'll

10:12

fill the proper forms all the rest of it

10:14

I mean it's a serious business why am I

10:16

going to put myself in hell because of

10:18

their mistakes I mean you know I I'm not

10:21

refusing to do the the DU diligence and

10:23

you feel you you feel sympathy for for

10:25

people but I mean these people are these

10:27

priests and taking attitude I I mean I'm

10:29

sorry but uh if I were their Confessor

10:32

and you're not going to repent I certain

10:34

not going to bet on your chances of

10:35

getting to

10:37

heaven so uh so anyway get but getting

10:40

back to the uh the whole business of the

10:41

analment that if the the the church has

10:44

established that these the um I I don't

10:47

know the exact term for granting an anol

10:50

is not quite well the grounds for an

10:51

grounds for analment that the grounds

10:52

for anman exist and so and that's what

10:54

the word means that the marriage was

10:56

null to begin with so there was no

10:58

marriage declaration that the marriage

11:00

never took place right I mean I know of

11:02

a case and and I presume all of them are

11:05

dead today I know certainly one partner

11:06

is dead but the the the the woman in in

11:09

this case and I I don't know her name

11:11

and I've never met her but I know this

11:13

the details of the well I'm trying to

11:15

get it as thought she did not understand

11:16

what marriage was in the first place I

11:18

mean you know it's I mean I'm sure

11:20

there's men who can be as ignorant like

11:22

that but in this case it was a woman and

11:24

so when she said I do she didn't even

11:25

know what she was agreeing to I mean

11:27

subsequent events brought that out and

11:29

her marriage was ened at the highest

11:30

level of the church about 10 years

11:33

later my point only being that there are

11:36

every case can be different but there's

11:39

no way that everybody doesn't understand

11:42

but there can be some unusual cases and

11:44

and but there are very for example one

11:47

of the things is a cont make it very

11:49

simple if you're going to give me this

11:51

paper John and you're saying I'm giving

11:53

it to you I have to the assumption is

11:55

that this paper belongs to you and you

11:57

can give it to me okay but if you are in

11:59

fact married to somebody else you cannot

12:01

say I do I can marry you because I'm

12:03

already married to someone else so if a

12:06

person and there are cases you know in

12:08

certainly upheavals war time what not

12:10

people the person's missing an action

12:12

for five years they married to somebody

12:14

else because everyone believed he was

12:16

dead and he shows up one day well all

12:19

was done in good faith but the fact is

12:22

still married to the original and that's

12:24

those are the kind of things that can't

12:26

happen there I mean history of course we

12:28

got 7 billion people well everyone has

12:29

their own life story so you know some

12:32

things go wrong sometimes so that's why

12:34

we have marriage tribunals but it's not

12:35

every marriage just can't be no no so

12:39

anyway um there's a lot to talk about

12:41

regarding marriage and annulments

12:42

especially marriage hopefully we'll deal

12:44

with this topic uh uh even more now than

12:47

this so this sinot is coming up in 2015

12:51

and uh we'll uh close this program and

12:54

we will pick it up next time thank you

12:57

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