Church Historian Dr. Mazza on LifeSite: "A pope will lose his power, he will lose his office, if he becomes a heretic or promotes the heresy of others. So this is just one example of St. Columban here, telling that to Boniface IV'

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We thank Dr. Ed Mazza and LifeSite News' John Henry Westen for giving The Catholic Monitor permission to post a series of probably four or five transcriptions of this important show. This is part three of the series:

Westen: How did the cardinals deal with it when they had to confront them, and how they even determined that they were anti-popes. I mean, obviously, this time is mega confusing. You have the best people on either side. It reminds me of what our Lord said in the Scriptures, "In the end, even the elect, if it be possible, will be confused." Give us some examples from history of how bishops, priests, and cardinals dealt with the same kind of a thing. 

Mazza: One of the earliest examples we have is from one of the darkest parts of the Dark Ages. We have St. Columban, an Irish missionary, who went throughout barbarian Europe bringing the faith back. And at the time, he writes a letter to Pope Boniface IV, I think it is. He's heard a rumor that Boniface is promoting Pope Vigilius's council that was held under Emperor Justinian, which looked like it was making compromises for the faith in order to appease the Monophysite heretics. And so it looks like the Pope is defending or promoting heretics. So let me read you the quote that Boniface says to him. Oh, excuse me, that Columban says to Pope Boniface IV. "I summon you. Remove the cloud of suspicion from St. Peter's chair. Call a conference so that you may clear the charges laid against you. For you are alleged to favor heretics. God forbid men should believe that this has been, is, or shall be true." And goes on to say that, "Already it is your fault if you have erred from the true belief and made your first faith void. Justly do your subordinates oppose you, and justly do they hold no communion with you. For if these things are rather true than fabled, with changed roles, your sons are turned into the head, while you become the tail. Thus too shall they be your judges, who have always kept the orthodox faith, even if they seem to be your subordinates." And he goes on to say, now he acknowledges Rome is the head of all the churches of the world, but he says, "Be careful lest you lose your dignity through some mistake. For power will be in your hands just so long as your principles remain sound. For he is the appointed key-bearer of the kingdom of heaven, who opens by true knowledge to the worthy and shuts to the unworthy. Otherwise, if he does the opposite, he shall be able neither to open nor to shut." 

In other words, a pope will lose his power, he will lose his office, if he becomes a heretic or promotes the heresy of others. So this is just one example of St. Columban here, telling that to Boniface IV. Now, the ironic part of all of this is that not only is St. Columban a saint, but Boniface IV is also saint, Boniface IV. So even a saintly pope can be accused of being an antipope. It all depends on how they ultimately clarify their actions or don't clarify their actions.

Westen:  It's really stunning because Columban doesn't even know that it is for sure. It's on suspicion because he's given the impression that. That's a bit freaky because we have so much impression that, I mean, well, we have statements out loud by Leo and Francis. The one on death penalty was so clear, but you could make more about how all religions are pathways to God. Leo saying to the Anglicans, we're already one. And if it's just about meetings with people who are heretical and seeming to give them favor, well, both Leo and Francis famously meet with Father James Martin, the biggest purveyor of, you know, a homosexual heresy in the Church.

Mazza: I also want So listen here before I forget, and that is that, you know, I said earlier that every Catholic theologian that deals with the issue of can the Pope be a heretic, they don't think it's possible. But they'll grant it as a hypothetical if the Pope could teach heresy as a private doctor. For example, like Cardinal Ratzinger in his trilogy, Jesus of Nazareth. He says up front, I'm not teaching as Pope here, I'm teaching as a private doctor. Feel free to disagree with me. I've got a quote here from Pope John Paul II, and this is what he says. He says that, "The essential task of the papal magisterium is to explain the doctrine of the faith and to promote the knowledge of the mystery of God and the work of salvation, bringing out all the aspects of the divine plan as it unfolds in human history under the action of the Holy Spirit. This is the service to the truth that has been primarily entrusted to Peter's successor." And this is the key phrase, "who, in the ordinary exercise of his magisterium, is already acting not as a private person, but as the supreme teacher of the universal Church." When the Pope is teaching as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, he cannot teach heresy. Plain and simple.

Westen: That's so troubling because, you know, with the official teaching documents of Amoris Laetitia, of Gaudete et Exsultate, of Redemptus Suplicans, we have that problem even faith where every Catholic who's a Catholic knows that's not on. And yet it's a teaching on faith and morals that, as Catholics, we're supposed to submit to in mind and in will. Please continue. 

Mazza: And some people say, well, you know, theologians debate whether or not the Pope can lose his office. But as I just pointed out, we've got dozens and dozens of popes that taught magisterially and infallibly that the Holy See is indefectible. But if you want to go back to the argument about does the Pope lose his office, Pope Innocent III in his magisterium teaches, so he, the Pope, can be judged by men, or rather shown to be judged, if he clearly loses his savor to heresy, since he who does not believe is already judged. More examples of popes saints and what they did practically speaking. At the turn of the second, at the beginning of the second millennium, there was a situation in medieval Europe where kings, emperors, lay lords were appointing bishops. Not only were they appointing bishops, they were investing them with the symbols of their spiritual authority. Now, the reason why this had gone on is because for 200 years there was this sort of salutary neglect that had happened because of the Vikings and the Magyars and different invasions that happened, and Europe broke up into feudal Europe, and the papacy was in a bad state. But when the reform popes came along, they said, no, you can't keep doing this. This was known as the Investiture Controversy. And the emperors, one emperor, decided to imprison Pope Pascal II. And then when Pascal II was released, the rest of the bishops of the Church were expecting Pascal to condemn the emperor for lay investiture. But he didn't, even when he got his liberty back. So, three canonized saints, saintly bishops, Saint Hugo, Saint Yves, and Saint Godfrey, attended a council in France. And at this council, they condemned in a document lay investiture. And they, you know, and what they did was they wrote to the Pope, and they said, as we absolutely do not expect, you choose another way, and you refuse to confirm the decisions of our authority, may God help us, for you will be separating us from obedience to you. He's an anti-pope, and therefore they don't have to be in communion with an anti-pope. Again, fortunately for history, he confirmed their teaching, and a crisis was averted. But the point is, John Henry, these saintly bishops, these canonized saints, they didn't sit idle. They didn't say, okay, let's have a novena campaign. They came out, and they said, Jesus's way or the highway. [This transcription was made with the help of https://chatgpt.com/]